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Bibliographic Conceptual Models Interest Group (Core IG Week) - Shared screen with speaker view
Jenny Levine (staff, she/hers)
12:33
Hi, everyone - I'm a Core staff member. Just a quick note that our Code of Conduct can be found at https://connect.ala.org/core/codeofconduct . Please contact me through private chat or Jenny at jlevine@ala.org if you experience or see any violations of the Code
Jenny Levine (staff, she/hers)
12:52
If you’re not already a member of this interest group, you can join it at https://connect.ala.org/core/communities/community-home?CommunityKey=d801b25e-e898-49ca-bb61-bcefd6825a65
Paloma Graciani Picardo
14:56
BCMIG in Core Connect - https://tinyurl.com/core-bcmig
Thomas Dousa
17:10
Perhaps we can inverse the order of presentations?
Paloma Graciani Picardo
17:19
that is a good idea
Abigail Sparling (she/her)
17:26
I'm fine with that
Everett Allgood
17:34
Yes, that works
Abigail Sparling (she/her)
18:46
A link to our slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1sWHMGReTCARR0TMbUFZlG7tBd1_YT_9tsum6-FrPbRg/edit?usp=sharing
Ian Bigelow
30:02
A little more on the overall model here - https://wiki.share-vde.org/w/images/3/3d/SVDE_entity_model_and_comparison.pdf
Rachael Sexton
31:10
Thank you!
Ian Bigelow
31:35
For reference, the current LC MARC to BIBFRAME conversion specifications - https://www.loc.gov/bibframe/mtbf/
Anchalee Panigabutra-Roberts
33:29
Great resources. Thank you!
Adam Schiff
34:34
sounds like the BIBFRAME designers didn't consult serials catalogers?
Kevin Randall
34:37
I don't understand why some simple and long-standing MARC relationships (partial absorption) are missing from Bibframe. How difficult is it to get them added? (I understand merges are another matter...)
Ian Bigelow
35:01
Also some further background information on Share-VDE - https://wiki.share-vde.org/wiki/ShareVDE:Members/Share-VDE_working_groups
Pat Riva
35:03
785 _7: long been an issue in MARC. Very hard to manage these 3-way relationships
Charlene Chou
36:00
Kevin, we've shared our concerns with LC already.
Kevin Randall
39:17
I have never used "changed back to" under AACR2 or RDA. Are people actually using it?
Charlene Chou
40:38
We found some records in OCLC. They are NOT created by CONSER catalogers!
Thurstan Young
41:05
Has the group used the Original RDA Toolkit or Official RDA Toolkit as its frame of reference?
Pat Riva
41:12
I don't know if it is still used. But agree with the analysis that it is a series of succeeding works, and the title of the later one happens to have the same string as a previous work
Ian Bigelow
41:31
Keep in mind the range of institutions and thus past practice in Share - https://wiki.share-vde.org/wiki/ShareFamily:Main_Page
Ian Bigelow
41:43
A lot of past practice comes up
Kevin Randall
43:30
It will be very interesting to see how continues/continued by relationships are used with records containing 247 fields. There is a complex set of elements in the record that would need to be parsed, and this would essentially be re-describing as successive entry, would it not?
Thomas Dousa
51:18
If you have any questions, please be sure to enter them into the Q&A module!
Adam Schiff
54:55
The first expression is NOT necessarily the representative expression though
Thurstan Young
55:29
Not always the first expression that is representative in RDA. Other criteria may be applied to determine if something is canonical.
Adam Schiff
55:47
Yes, often a revised edition is the canonical expression
Adam Schiff
56:07
think about director's cuts of films, for example
Adam Schiff
57:00
and authors often revise their texts to "improve" them
Laura Akerman
58:47
The future may not be like the past, especially in terms of manifestations - as more and more earlier physical publications become available electronically - as a straightforward “digitization”, or as a special digital edition with additions or re-typesetting etc. Maybe 20% will start to creep up. Especially if a “separate record” approach is taken to cataloging them.
Thurstan Young
58:53
Indeed. Or an editor revises a text after an author's death in a way which does not reflect the author's intention : e.g. Il gattopardo
Jenna Miller
59:04
In the case of movies though, isn't the initial release still considered the representative expression? The director's cut is still treated like a different work with the identifier of being the director's cut.
Jenna Miller
59:46
*treated like a different expression
Adam Schiff
59:47
the original release and a director's cut are both expressions of the same work, not different works (in FRBR/LRM)
Adam Schiff
01:00:34
I think some may argue that the director's cut may reflect the director's actual vision, and could be the canonical version. It's clearly subjective however
Graeme Williams
01:01:14
It would be interesting to look at the movie "Blade Runner" to see which expression was considered the representative expression. I suspect you'd see several answers.
Adam Schiff
01:01:17
But I think it's incorrect to always assume that the first edition is always the representative expression
Laura Akerman
01:01:34
Was the decision to not expose the “FRBR Work Cluster” (and presumably an identifier for it) mainly related to OCLC’s difficulty in presenting this concept in its own discovery environment?
Jenna Miller
01:02:06
Time definitely plays a part I think. There are works that we treat as canonical that were originally published in different forms, like serial, etc. So I agree, it's definitely subjective
Cody Hackett
01:02:19
What about a text like Leaves of Grass that was continually rewritten and republished over the entire working life of the author? How is that treated?
Adam Schiff
01:02:47
with Leaves of Grass, it could be that the final version pub. by Whitman might be the rep. expr.
Thurstan Young
01:02:58
The following MARC proposal addresses representative expressions and draws a distinction between "original" and "canonical" : https://www.loc.gov/marc/mac/2022/2022-04.html
Laura Akerman
01:03:00
Was data such as uniform titles (aligning with FRBR Work and Expression) associated with records used to help inform the relationships?
Jenna Miller
01:04:05
It also brings up the question of who decides what is canonical. Who has more control over the work, publisher or author, or in the case of movies is it the director who decides what's the rep. expr. or is the studio, since it was created by a large team?
Jeff Mixter
01:04:14
This model focuses on relationships between the bibliographic entities. For Blade Runner there are definitely the original release, the directors cut and the Final release.
Jeff Mixter
01:04:48
And they need to be accounted for with relationships between them since they do not always fit within the rigid hierarchical structure
Adam Schiff
01:05:15
often a studio cuts a film in some way and a director may disavow that version
Adam Schiff
01:05:46
I guess it depends on one's view of director as auteur
Graeme Williams
01:06:24
It feels as though "representative expression" is OK for the data model only as long as it doesn't leak into the OPAC display.
Graeme Williams
01:06:58
OPAC display
Kevin Randall
01:07:09
@Jenna: I think we will definitely have to make sure entities and relationships can easily be modified, and also find a way to have different communities choose different entities as "representative" for whatever purposes.
Adam Schiff
01:07:43
the problem for a film is if for example a particular duration is stated as canonical based on the original release, when it may not be the canonical duration according to a director or film critic
Thurstan Young
01:08:31
For manifestations with only one expression there is no problem. And often the first expression will be representative. But as the examples above note, "original" and "canonical" are not synonymous.
Jenny Levine (staff, she/hers)
01:09:02
Keep the discussion going - if you're not already a member of this interest group, you can join it at https://connect.ala.org/core/communities/community-home?CommunityKey=d801b25e-e898-49ca-bb61-bcefd6825a65
Graeme Williams
01:09:22
@Adam, perhaps you need a way of pushing work-level attributes down into the expression.
Jenna Miller
01:10:50
Thank you for the amazing presentation and interesting discussion.
Jenny Levine (staff, she/hers)
01:10:58
I'm sorry, but we need to end the session
Dave Van Kleeck
01:11:06
Thank you to the presenters and hosts!
Maria Ho
01:11:19
thank you all presenters
Paloma Graciani Picardo
01:11:25
Join us at BCMIG in Core Connect - https://tinyurl.com/core-bcmig
Zoe Dobbs
01:11:29
Thank you! A lot to think about with these presentations
Amanda Xu
01:11:32
Thank you!!!
Joan Milligan
01:11:34
Thank you. This was very helpful!
Adrienne Seely
01:11:35
Thank you all.
Amy Convery
01:11:35
Thank you